Interview: Andrew Horn, men’s work leader

And what happens when your mom reads every negative judgment you’ve ever had

This interview is the first in a weekly interview series covering folks doing darn interesting things in the world of men’s work, emotional intelligence, and the cultures surrounding them.

Our first interview is with Andrew Horn, founder of the Junto men’s group. I’m inspired by how Andrew walks the walk when it comes to all things men’s work and showing up authentically. I recently took part in one of Andrew’s workshops where he walked me through a few tools that put the fear of God in me, while pushing me to live more authentically. He shares one of those tools with us here.

If you’re interested in men’s work, please read through the end where Andrew discusses how to get involved.

And if you want to know what it’s like to have your mom read every negative judgement you’ve ever thought of her, read halfway ;)

Johnny: You teach relational leadership. What's the short description of what relational leadership is and what being “above the line” in a relationship is?

Andrew: The founding idea of this framework is that if we are to focus on bringing harmony into all of our important relationships - our professional, personal, familial - that to create that harmony, we will need to become fully actualized in the best version of ourselves.

So much research shows that the essence of a life well lived and cultivating sustainable happiness is grounded in building meaningful relationships. 

And that's also quite hard. Relational leadership is the idea that if we can commit to that practice, and master some of the core skills of relational leadership, not only will we become the best version of ourselves, but we're going to build a really quality, fulfilling life in the process. 

Johnny: How do you know when you’ve reached that harmony? That goal for a relationship?

Andrew: A great way to think about that is that you are operating from a place of presence with that person. 

So right now me and you, Johnny, I am operating with you on a place of presence. There is nothing that I am withholding from you. There is nothing that I'm afraid to share with you. And so, in essence, I am “above the line.” I'm operating from a place of trust and presence. 

And when we are “below the line,” we are operating from a place of threat or worry, which means that I am worried that this person is going to misrepresent me or talk shit about me. That this person is not going to do what they say they're going to do. That something here could go wrong, that could harm me in some sort of physical, emotional, spiritual way. 

And the way that we ask ourselves that, is usually: “is there anything that I'm feeling and thinking that I haven't shared?” Ultimately, if we are withholding, if we are concealing versus revealing with these people, then I would say that that's how you know that you are below the line. 

And ultimately, the path of relational leadership is just identifying what are those relationships in my life where I'm currently below the line where I'm operating from a place of threat like something's gonna go wrong here. I can't be my full self here. Those are the most potent opportunities for us to grow and to create action in our lives.

Johnny: I heard of an exercise you did at your men's group Junto in relation to this, which was acknowledging who you're talking shit about and sending them a text message. Would you be willing to share what that exercise looks like? 

Andrew: You know, it's not even talking shit. That's one aspect of it. It's called a clearing. If you're following along, as a reader, get out something that you can write with, and the prompts would be: 

• “Who are the people with whom I'm holding resentment against in my life?” 

• Who do I feel unclear with where I’m feeling something that I have not, or will not share with this person? 

Any of those prompts are going to point your awareness towards the relationship where you are below the line. Where you're operating from a place of threat or worry. 

What I would invite you to do in an effort to reclaim our own integrity - I would say you'd start by addressing conversational purpose. So it's: “Hey, I'm reaching out to you because I want us to have a relationship where we can be authentic with each other. And I've been holding on to something and not sharing it. I want you to be able to share anything that you might be holding on to as well.” 

Johnny: I want to make sure that I'm getting the sequence of this in a really succinct way so that folks can wrap their heads around just what this entails

Andrew:

• You would begin with conversational purpose. Here's why I am reaching out to you. 

• Next, we would present some objective facts. This thing happened in our relationship. We clarify what we needed from the person and when that happened. 

• And then we would move into checking our assumptions, which is I have been feeling this and not sharing it. Because I am X Y or Z. 

• And then we go into: I want to invite you to share back with me. How are you feeling? 

• And then we would close with that invitation consciously. I wanted to put this in a note to give you time to respond thoughtfully. Whenever you are ready, I'd like to connect for a phone call or in person. 

Johnny: It sounds scary as hell. Can you share some experiences of how that's played out for you?

Andrew: I think that where a lot of people's minds go when I introduce it's like, what if this blows up the relationship? What if this blows up the job? 

And the bigger question is: “Am I willing to sacrifice my authenticity and my needs to be in relationship with this person?” And if the answer to that is “yes,” we have a much bigger issue to address than whatever content you're dealing with in that person. 

Almost to a startling degree, the conversations that transpire from these are overwhelmingly positive and going in the direction that we would hope that they would go - towards connection and reconciliation. 

And even the ones that don't go the way that people had intended - a father not being available to reconnect - I ask the person: “Hey, he didn't respond the way that you wanted. Do you wish that you didn't send that message?” 

And never once, with thousands of guys coming through our program, has anyone ever said “No, I wish I didn't send the message.” Never once. 

I don't want people to just go out like a firehose with their shame and their criticism and their blame. But when we do that intentionally, it is an act of service to those around us. 

There are so many books written about radical candor and the art of feedback because people don't know how to do it, but if you can be that person with intention, people start to respect you so much more. It's not about being liked, and they respect you, which I think most people would value much more deeply.

Johnny: As someone who's been practicing this, who has stepped into that fear plenty of times and has had those conversations - what does that set of relationships feel like and look like? 

Andrew: Like freedom. Like a lightness, man. Like floating in the air. 

I buried my father in the Elmendorf Air Force cemetery in Eagle River, Alaska this year and over the past three years, I spent countless hours helping him to reconcile with his daughters and addressing sexual abuse that existed in his history that I unearthed by asking him every question I've ever wanted to ask him. 

I was able to bury my father, feeling clear that I've asked him everything I wanted to share with him and that I've shared all my appreciation. And I have an ex wife who I love and she was here with her new partner last night and we're hanging out and we love the shit out of each other.

And my mom has literally heard - not intentionally - but every single negative judgment and thought that I have ever thought about her in my entire life. 

I don't know if I've told this story up publicly. I did something called the Hoffman process a couple of years ago and Hoffman is based on this idea called the negative love syndrome. 

You're documenting all of the negative pattern behaviors that you've experienced in your parents. You're also articulating all of your judgment of them. What are all the criticisms, the shame, the blame you've ever had for your parents? And writing them all down, seeing how those statements are also true about you. And it all goes into this binder. 

And after Hoffman I left to pick up my son from school and when I came home - I was at my mom's house and I walked into the living room. My mom is sitting there and she's crying and I was like, “are you OK?” And she pulled out the binder and decided to read everything. 

So imagine for a second your mother or your father is reading a binder with - and I'm not being hyperbolic here - every negative thought I have ever had about her. Every horrible critical thing I've said or thought. Not even said, but thought about her was in this book. And she read everything

Johnny: And how did that wind up?

Andrew: To speak to your question of what does it look and what does it feel like? Within two seconds, I knew that this situation, this experience, was going to be for the best.

I also evaluated - I was like “This feels like a breach of trust that she read this. I'm not going to address that right now. I'm going to focus on her and where she's at.” 

We talked about it. I was able to share that. “Mom, I love you. You are my Buddha. You are the most influential person in my life. You are my favorite person on earth. I love you. I want to be able to see and appreciate and love you for exactly who you are. And everything that you read in this book is what keeps me from doing that. I need to reconcile my own judgments of you to show myself how they are just about me so that I am more capable of loving you and seeing you and accepting you for exactly who you are while you're here.” And that was true. 

And you know, I was just on the phone with my mom before I talked to you and we have an incredible relationship and support each other. We’re thought partners in a lot of stuff. 

But I really do believe that even now, she's seen all these things. So what can't I talk about? 

I have a six year old son and I have this deep vision and desire that we will talk about everything. And he can share anything with me - never has to hide anything for me. And you know how I know that's possible for us? Because I've made it true for me and both of my parents. 

Johnny: If a man is men’s work curious, what advice, if any, would you have for them?

Andrew: Google “men's work” and go and see all of the great people who are doing stuff from Dan Doty to John Wineland to Connor Beaton to me and Junto to you and All Kings. You'll see that people have different approaches to it and someone's gonna write something down and you're gonna be like, I connect with that and reach out to him and go and do something. 

If you can't afford it, go volunteer. I guarantee you any of these guys - they're not doing it because they want to be super rich and buy yachts. They’re doing it because they care about it. 

And so if you can't afford any of this work, reach out, tell them I can't afford this and want to be a part of it. Can I help? Can I volunteer? They will make space for you. I know these guys will make space for you. I will make space for you. So that would be first and foremost. 

And the second is to just do it. Start a men's group. Google how to start a men's group. There are already plenty of documents. Junto is releasing ours. You can do it yourself. Find at least four of your friends. You don't need to know how to do it. You need to be committed to learning. Get your guys together. Come and talk about how to actually feel our feelings and explore what it means to be a man. 

I think a men's group with some consistency is one of the the most effective - the deepest ROIs - anyone can get on their commitment to self. 

Johnny: And if folks want to get more Andrew Horn where do they go?

Andrew: The best place for men’s work is going to be wejunto.com - you’ll see our retreats there. We do quarterly retreats. We have virtual men's groups that we host once a month. We have facilitated men's groups that we're launching this year, which we're excited about. And we're open to collaborators and partners who want to contribute their skill set to grow our unique blend of men's work in the world. 

And then itsandrewhorn.com where I write more about my personal life, leadership, and how to love people really effectively. And then my Relational Leadership Substack if you're more curious about these practices of how to use authenticity and personal integrity to master your relationships.